Is This Marketer Stealing Our Commissions?
We’ve just learned that a fellow marketer is outright diverting our commissions and we think you need to be aware of this sort of thing happening in the marketplace before you invest your time, promotional efforts and advertising dollars promoting your affiliate links for such marketers and products.
Now, before we get into what we just learned today that was so upsetting, we’d like to say that last month another marketer pointed out to us that the Internet marketer in question had taken a stab at us.
He had sent an email to his subscribers with the subject line “Don’t do something Wacky” and the email body said “we don’t want you to do something “Wacky” like PAY for the new [product name]! We’ve got it for you FREE here: [his link]”
Here is a screenshot of that email – regarding privacy, the receipient’s name has been covered. TheWackyGang.com/april8-email.jpg
The jab was referring to our then current Wacky Weekend Dimesale product. He was giving it away for free, we were selling it. That kind of thing happens in marketing, just like one seller charges more than another for the same product. No big deal, really.
We kind of blew it off at the time, thinking it was all in fun, but now we know better…
We didn’t think much of it at the time. We had previously signed up to affiliate a couple of his products, and had also made earnings from previous cookied affiliate links. We are familiar with
how this all works.
Today, to our dismay, while attempting to login to his affiliate center to get our affiliate link for a new product we wanted to promote, we discovered that he had removed our “wacky” email/paypal address and inserted his own Paypal email address!
We did a “whois” search for the domain used in that email, and imagine our surprise when we found that it did, indeed, belong to the very Internet marketer whose products we were trying to affiliate.
Our affiliate nickname is always the same, and when we couldn’t login with the password we have in our records we used the “forgot password” button at his site. When we entered our usual affiliate nickname, instead of showing that it had sent the login details to our email address, it reported it had sent them to an email we didn’t recognize as our own.
What that means is that anyone who was cookied to our affiliate nickname “wacky” from our past promotions is now paying the product owner our affiliate commissions. And we receive nothing.
Until now, we have admired his presentations and products, so why would he do this?
Our best guess is because he sees us as strong competition, but of course that is only our opinion.
Working online isn’t a race or a contest. Yes, it IS competitive, and we do know there have
always been a few thieves in the mix, but to blatantly alter the payment information of one of
your own affiliates so that you get paid instead is simple thievery.
We know what we think. We’d like to know your opinions as well.
And stay tuned, Kathe has already written the marketer in question for his explanation, so we will update after his response to these allegations.
Leave us a comment and tell us your thoughts on situations such as this.
(UPDATE: we didn’t name the marketer because we wanted to allow him to answer our 3 email requests for explanation. He appeared within minutes of our post and email, and revealed his own identity below then emailed his own affiliates to visit the blog for comment.
We have attempted to take the “emotion” from our post to be fair, and ALL comments have been posted “as is” EXCEPT where a link MAY have been rewritten to prevent unknown or unvalidated links from being posted.)
Further, although we may not respond to every comment, we didn’t want anyone to feel their post was insignificant and thank you ALL for your participation in this discussion.
We have received numerous “messages” from those not wanting to post for fear of retribution or the deletion of their own affiliate account(s). We fully understand this, and again, appreciate your input and support.
The marketer has covered his tracks and while we appreciate “Ken” and his loyalty to the marketer in question. His behavior on this blog stands on it’s own.
Posts are automatically approved per our settings, except those containing excessive links. This is simply a precaution and we reserve the right to remove duplicate posts.
UPDATE: June 8th – At several of your requests, we have removed the spam comments and now will approve what goes up. As we can go thru “his” comments, we will also put those back up that we feel are not abusive to you, the poster(s). We know he doesn’t know what he’s talking about, but don’t think it’s right for him to harrass those of you nice enough to comment on our behalf. This only affects ONE person that has posted over 20 times…again, as we go thru the posts, we will re-approve so they appear – we have nothing to hide, of course.
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I would love to respond to your blog post which is not only “low” it is also inaccurate and misleading. Oh, and by the way, no email from you was ever received as you have stated.
First, yes you are a competitor. Unfortunately, you make a habit of releasing products at a fraction of their actual value thus devaluing the products. This not only affects the market as a whole but also hurts the affiliates by reducing their profits and sales.
I am not “stealing” your commissions in any way and you should be careful about accusations made. Your affiliate account was DELETED as I prefer your not using our affiliate program as a “tool”.
It is my perogative to allow or disallow affiliates to promote our products.
When I noticed a pattern of our products that were newly released being quickly released on your site often times up to half of the price or more, I decided it was in all of my affiliates interest to not let you use our affiliate program as a guide to release the same product and undercut price. It’s not fair to my affiliates (and quite frankly not fair to yours).
I am not interested in having affiliates that use our program as a way to try to bolster their sales and then turn around and try to reap the rewards when they want to promote a product they can’t get their hands on.
So yes….let your members see if I have a valid position (if you leave the comment her)
Hi John,
So glad to hear from you…I personally sent three (3) emails and resent the gmail.com one just about 30 minutes ago, so, unless your sites are down (which they aren’t) and you don’t get your “admin” emails as directed on your site(s) then…how should we know what you did with them…
So, now that you’re here…let me first say this, there are far more marketers that undercut (even GIVE AWAY) the same or similar products as we market.
Now…I had to read this last paragraph several times to truly understand it…so NOW I SEE, that the ONE TIME we asked you for MRR on a product (and consequently PAID YOU $37 for…) we never even marketed – you will NEVER find it anywhere on our sites.
So, yes, we’ll see if folks feel you are justified in changing the database and removing our paypal email WITHOUT OUR KNOWLEDGE…just doesn’t seem like good business to us..but then again, that’s just us. (and note, we left your comment…have NOTHING to hide)
Secondly, this is OUR BUSINESS…so who appointed you to determine what our pricing and etc. should be? We would never do that to you AND IF WE DID, we would be professional enough to APPROACH YOU PERSONALLY first, and NEVER delete (ah, REDIRECT) your links to our own – at least without telling you what or why it was done?
Thirdly, we know the RAP script like the back of our hands, were there long before you, and happen to KNOW that IF you delete an account it would SHOW as not found, not with a changed email/paypal address. (Sid can correct me on this, but…)
And yes, we agree it is your perrogative to allow or disallow affiliates to promote. It’s interesting you never said anything to us. We have NEVER purchased a product from you, then turned around and “undersold” it – because those that have known and worked with us for the past four (4) years KNOW we would never do that (or at least we notify them to ASK if there needs to be licensing clarification).
We’re not quite sure what you mean by using your affiliate program as a “TOOL” – we are affiliates of a LOT of marketers, and when we see something we think they would like, we go about purchasing it, testing it and getting a promotional link.
Now, I’m not quite sure why you would turn down AFFILIATE sales…lol But hey, I guess you’re among those higher earners (charging more and all) and can afford to do that. We simply feel (and give) a little more respect to our own affiliates – but that’s just us.
Regarding your comment: “When I noticed a pattern of our products that were newly released being quickly released on your site often times up to half of the price or more”…Now John, you know as well as we do that we get many products from the same places and if we are working on something at the same time, then that’s called a “coincidence”?
If affiliates want to promote one marketer over another, that’s THEIR BUSINESS…we don’t tie them to the bedposts and induce any physical, emotional or financial pain.
Again, regardless of whether or not you THINK we use your program (I mean, this is the first time we have signed in in months, so no telling when you did this and how long you’ve been taking our cookied commissions)…to bolster OUR sales. We rarely find time to read most marketing emails, and I got THIS INFORMATION from one of your affiliates…lol Again, we merely wanted to promote it – but we don’t promote things we haven’t ‘tested’ ourselves – it prevents problems!
Well Hello everyone,
I have know the duel here for about five years. Yes they have weekly sells. Yes they promote products from a few memberships I belong too as well. I used to do the weekly thing right around the same price as these two lovely Ladies do. I personally can speak for these two. They do not try to steal from other marketers. Thats just not the way they are. They make enough to have been doing this for the last four years. I have been around for six. So I was actually doing it before them. But have been in giveaways and have them on my skype. Now John I dont know you but I somehow got on your list and this is how I heard about this little thing. I think John first off. It takes two too tangle. Secondly I believe you could be the bigger man by just saying that You have not taken any money from them and if you want to voice you opinion about their business try talking crap on their support tickets instead of trying to degrade them in the heat of exchanging word. Just because they promote a product at a lesser price doesn’t mean your affiliates or your customers even know about this. This is a really really big internet. You can sell your products the way you want 2 and they can sell them the way they want to. If I can say one more thing about price a while back MF tried to stop someone from lowering the price of his really good and really expensive products and was not able to. So what he does now is if he hears of someone doing that if will not let them buy from him. Anyways my point is their is no way to stop anyone from sells products for a buck. (not the best price) because the old saying says you get what you pay for. The Seven bucks thing started because it was a hit. and it made money.. Their has been many marketers trying to get the products back up to standard prices but the same thing is still true today. Some people cant afford to invent that much in the business just yet and if they can get something that can help them then shoot it was all worth it. I have bought many at that price and many at hire pricing. Yes I think the prices should come back up so we can all make more money cause 7×7 is 49 but 7×37 or even 27 creates more revenue. But back to you and your script. I again dont know you and have only gotten signed up for a bit. But I can say these two ladies are not that way and if you dont want to really isolate yourself in the im world I would just say Sorry about the confusing and take this to another arena or just let it go to the way side.
Just my 2 cents. Ladies Have a wonderful day and John it will be ok just step back and take a breathe.
This guy/gal IMHO is a crook & a thief. I would reveal his name and never sell his products again. Once his name is revealed I will post it on my blog with a link back here as I am sure many others will. Affiliates need to know this guy is a crook. Make sure you document everything.
I would also report him to PayPal as a thief by first calling them to find out what they can do (if anything) and where you should send the complaint in writing.
June Parker recently posted..Don’t Buy Niche Reaper
Thanks June for your comment.
He revealed himself within minutes of our email, so we didn’t have to.
…and Paypal can’t/won’t do anything. This is a “business ethics” matter mostly and they usually don’t get involved…good suggestion tho’
LOL. He and I were both writing at the same time and he posted first. That is the reason for the second post; responding to him.
June Parker recently posted..Don’t Buy Niche Reaper
Again IMHO, it is your prerogative to accept or not accept an affiliate to promote your products; however, there is a proper chain of action that should be followed ethically. I am not an attorney, but for the last 8 years this is how marketers have always conducted their business.
1. Dissolve the relationship by closing the account.
2. Send an email to the affiliate to let them know that their affiliate application has been denied or dissolved.
3. If your product is being sold through Clickbank, or any other affiliate network, you would need to alert the network. I am not sure what the policy is in a matter of blocking an affiliate, but as the owner of the product it is your responsibility to find out. Obviously, each network has their own policy.
4. If you are selling your product with Master Resell Rights, you need to state in the terms of the MRR license that the product can only be sold for X amount of dollars. If the Wacky girls have a resell rights license that does not state that in your terms, it has always been my understanding that the buyer can then sell it for any amount that they want. They can also give it away for free unless your license states they may not.
5. If an affiliate is selling your product as an affiliate, they must sell it at the terms you are asking on your sales page.
6. Taking an affiliates commission by rerouting PayPal links IMHO is just wrong.
7. In this economic environment the Wacky girls are not the only ones doing this. I personally know three other marketers that are doing the same thing.
June Parker recently posted..Don’t Buy Niche Reaper
Once again, thanks June,
Your points are, of course, very valid. We KNOW marketers are pulling “funny stuff” out there, but people have tolerated it, therefore they continue to do it. When people are desparate for money, they will do just about anything these days it seems to get ot. Unfortunately, those of us wanting to do business “right” (doesn’t have anything to do with pricing…that just exhibits a degree of greed in the scenario presented), are lumped in with the “bad guys.”
All we can ever hope is that folks know us, marketers know us, and even if other marketers don’t seem to LIKE US (for whatever wacky reason), WE know we “do it right” and when we need to be corrected, we too have a support desk at WackySupport.com where they can be sure to get in touch with us and where we know (because you guys tell us) we respond faster than 75% of the marketers out there (if they even respond at all).
(btw, we weren’t contacted at our support desk either.
I totally agree with you and that is what I meant by knowing 3 other marketers doing the same thing. Not what John Farrar is unethically doing, but selling products at a more affordable rate. Love you guys!
June Parker recently posted..Don’t Buy Niche Reaper
I’m curious about the “Deletion” of the “Wacky” affiliate account. If their account was truly “Deleted” then why were they able to find their username in your affiliate system and determine that their affiliate name has a different email address attached to it?
Are your cookies driven by the affiliate name? If so, then you should see that it looks like you have hijacked their account so anyone with a cookie on their machine for your programs with the “Wacky” affiliate name attached to the cookie will not go to the Wacky folks.
On the surface, it does smell a bit fishy.
Robert recently posted..The Rookie & The Shiney New Thing
FINALLY, a voice of reason that recognizes the real problem here.
If it looks like a fish, and smells like a fish…
FYI,
When the Wacky Gals initially signed up for my program, they signed up with 2 affiliate accounts using different Paypal email addresses. (a tactic frequently used by some to obtain products for free by the way).
I sent numerous emails to them explaining that my affiliate program terms only allow 1 account. Those went unanswered and I subsequently deleted the 2nd account.
As far as their existing account it was deleted after I made the decision to not let them affiliate with our program. Today, they opened another affiliate account, which has also now been deleted. So you can take their claim that I am “hijacking” their account for what it is worth. If you don’t have an account and yet you promote an affiliate link, it’s going to divert to the merchant’s account by default….it’s how the script works.
John, John, John…
No emails here, we both searched.
And ask ANY MARKETER around, we have NEVER had two accounts…we have always been simply “WACKY”
Now, most RAP marketers KNOW that I personally had a problem with paypal a couple of years back, BUT, the email we used for payments was going to Denise’s account, then moved when our own personal accounts were re-established.
You really, really should have confronted us personally. Maybe even ask around (Sid Hale, developer of RAP being a perfect source) about our business ETHICS.
Yes, we opened a second account today, because we thought our subs would want what you offered, but found this “problem” at that time. CONFUSED, I did a “wackygals” nickname, but we have NEVER had two accounts at your site other than as described.
NOW…get this…lol Denise and I both have put our heads together on this and find now that you DO NOT HAVE A MAIN AFFILATE SIGN UP (or didn’t in January when we were going to promote for you the graphics package we BOUGHT AND PAID YOU FOR, so we’re thinking “hmmm, wonder if somehow those got mixed up” (we’ve gone thru all records and emails here)…BUT thereis this one problem with that scenario (which most RAP users know)…
YOU CAN NOT USE THE SAME NICKNAME TWICE! Period!
…and then finally, We have NEVER, NEVER, NEVER signed up an affiliate account on a RAP script that didn’t use the shadeboss(at)gmail Paypal email…NEVER.
I guess we will chalk this up to just another marketer being intimidated by two “aging” (oh, that’s “wacky”) marketers that merely do what’s right, abide by common business ethics, are honest and work hard for the income we are grateful our subscribers feel confident in allowing us to collect.
As for YOUR mistruths, we would hope this stops here…let’s let the people talk/comment, John, K? I mean, why would we want to be enemies. If we didn’t like you and/or your products, we would have never wanted to promote them…but that’s just us.
If you’d like to discuss this in a professional manner (which should have been done before you changed our email in your system), please feel free to send me an email and I will give you a call.
Oh…omgosh, rofl…Denise just said to me “wouldn’t it be funny if that other account was the “other” wacky people?” And she has a very valid point. We aren’t the only “wacky” folks out there… Ultimately, you’re right, you won’t be promoting for you any longer. I wonder – does that mean we can’t buy anything either?
Sorry Gals,
I have been an affiliate with John for some time now and he has been using the same system since the day I signed up, which was well before your reference to January.
And you still seem to be challenging a program operators right to termiante an affiliate account “for any reason”, as you yourselves state in your very own terms and policies. Why is it that you seem to believe others cannot ahve the same temrs and policies?
And now we are at that inevitable level of making accustaions that emails were never sent, which is only a pointless statement, that is unless the sender did “request a read delivery and/or read receipt”, which would immediatly negate any such nefarious claims…
However, historically I have experienced difficulties sending or receiving thru Gmail accounts on many occasions and quite frankly I have to question any serious business owner/operator who only uses Gmail for their primary business mail. Considering that Gmail is today considered to be SPAM Central and many ISP’s do block a lot of Gmail for this reason… Additionally we ahve the issues of Google using info in Gmail for marketing purposes and to drive even more SPAM to senders and recipients alike…
Oh, you aren’t aware of this little marketing Scam (read SPAM)…
Perhaps we will consider adding “any marketer only using Gmail” to our warning about marketers hiding behind proxy’s in our next newsletter… May we have permission to cite your operation as an example??
Bottom line is that you arr pissed off because you had your affiliate account terminated despite the fact that your own policies allow you to termiante any affiliate account for any reason at any time.
Now, just how intelligent is that? Hmm, I wonder if perhaps the reference to “WACKY” has some hidden meaning in this case?
Wacky Defined according to Dictionary.com… “A Fool; A Crazy Person; a person who behaves as if he had been whacked on the head”…
Hmmm… serious food for thought, just as you complaining about someone who is enforcing the very same policies that you have published and enforce.
You might have published ALL the definitions?
wacky definition
1.mod.
loony; silly and giddy. : You are about the wackiest guy I ever met.
(same source, btw)
…and yes, we like to have fun and act silly at times. If you have to work, and with the likes of some of these folks, you better be having some fun, because it does make you a little loony after a while, for sure.
“So glad to hear from you…I personally sent three (3) emails and resent the gmail.com one just about 30 minutes ago, so, unless your sites are down (which they aren’t) and you don’t get your “admin” emails as directed on your site(s) then…how should we know what you did with them…lol”
I don’t use a “gmail” account for my business and there are no emails from you in my personal gmail account (go figure)….
My email address, as is clearly shown in my emails and from the site is admin [at] getinstantpayments(dot)com and our helpdesk is getinstantpayments(dot)com/helpdesk
Frankly, if you want to have a discussion, then try actually contacting me. Personally, I don’t have the time or the desire to air out petty (yet defamatory on your part) comments all because you disagree with my right to disallow an affiliate from my program….
Yes, you have the right to do what you want with your products. But I also have the right to look out for the best interest of my affiliates and if that includes not allowing marketer’s that devalue products because they think the way to sell is rock bottom pricing to use our affiliate program, then I have that right.
Have a great weekend!
John,
We have NO PROBLEM if you don’t want us to be an affiliate for you, what we had a problem with was you REDIRECTING OUR COMMISSIONS on the sales/links we had previously, to your own Paypal account. Done…
P.S. BTW, Check your spam filters…we DID email to admin(at)getinstantpayments(dot)com
So now we have someone who uses Gmail demanding that someone else check their spam filters.
Ladies, if you have to demand that someone “Check Their Spam Filters” simply because you have elected to use a FREE (Read SPAM) email service then perhaps we should all question your motives in all this.
Unbelievable!!!
And then you have the gall to claim that its the senders responsibility to make sure you get your mail from them…
So let me get this straight, when you use GMAIL (SPAM CENTRAL) to send an email to someone it is their responsibility to check their spam filters and their fault if they don’t receive it….
BUT, when you use GAIL (SPAM CENTRAL) to receive an email from that same party, it is their responsibility to make sure that it gets thru all the ISP spam filters, as well as your own SPAM filters,on its way to you…
Oaky, now we know for sure what the term WACKY is referencing…
So, I see, everything that happens to you, for you, by you or because of you is someone else’s fault or responsibility. I get it now…
GMAIL users are now Gods unto themselves and can do no wrong… Very good!
I guess my recommendation to NEVER do business with anyone who only uses GMAIL to communicate will have to be a published policy and recommendation since you have now taken said responsibility to a new high…
Perhaps that is why so many inquiries that I have made to have gone un-responded to. I failed to acknowledge that it is my responsibility to make sure an email addressed to
wackysales@gmail.com or wackysales@gogglemail.com
actually arrives at its destination, is opened, is read, and is responded to…
Is wackysales@googlemail.com even a legitimate email address?
If not, then why are you publishing a non-existent email address in your email marketing campaigns? Doesn’t that violate virtually every ISPs terms of use?
Please advise at your earliest opportunity for I am very curious about this wackysales@googlemail.com email address, especially since it is used in many of the marketing emails I have received from you which all trace back to The Agency.LLC and K Lucas of 5147 S. Harvard #200 in Tulsa Oklahoma. Perhaps The Planet would like to know that a client is “spoofing” email addresses in their marketing emails.
Interesting note regarding contact domain registration contact info… does a fax (only) number properly fulfill the phone number contact requirement for a legitimate domain name registration account? I guess we will ahve to look into that as well…
But then we can all agree to disagree and simply go our separate ways and let the real internet market determine our individual success or failure, after all, what goes around does come around, I have seen it proven with too many “Wack-Jobs” over my 60 years…
> John Farrar said: When the Wacky Gals initially signed up for my
> program, they signed up with 2 affiliate accounts using different
> Paypal email addresses.
Wacky Gals are TWO persons and they can create 2 affiliate accounts using different paypal accounts. I think there is nothing wrong in it.
> a tactic frequently used by some to obtain products for free by the way.
They are not that kind of people. You can blame them only IF you found their order with their own affiliate links. Otherwise you are making a baseless allegation.
John, I think you should not have posted this issue to your list. Because your affiliates received a link to Wacky Gals’ blog and they got some free traffic. I think you are promoting your competitor
Christy.
Thanks for your support Christy…
New marketers think because we don’t pal around with “their crowd,” we are pretty much “non-essentials” in Internet Marketing and guess what…we don’t really care.
We know who we are, this is (and has been for many years) our fulltime “job” and since we aren’t married, we’re “it” when it comes to income generation, so we have always been in for the long haul and have been around long enough that the pros know who we are and that we do what we say we will do, and frankly, Denise nor I either one have ever been the type to “keep up with the Joneses” so…
At the end of the day, weeks, months and all these years, all we can only hope is that our honesty, integrity and longevity is what ultimately keeps us afloat (and good folks coming back).
Thanks again Christy
So, you are saying that any two or more people, even though they represent the same business, may create two separate accounts and then proceed to buy using one account thru the other account to essentially acquire products for free regardless of the affiliate programs rules against doing exactly this and against the obvious moral implications of doing this.
So, that being the case, how do you account for their signing up for a third account with John? Hmm, I suppose one or more of the “WACKY” duo actually has a split personality and that would then make it okay to have tree or four or …
This is ridiculous.
If the intent of the rules are to prevent thieves from committing acts that can only be construed as thievery, then I have no doubt the courts in Oklahoma would be happy to enforce just such contractual intent.
As I understand it Oklahoma has some pretty strict CRIMINAL statutes regarding the internet, especially relative to defamation of character and fraud, so, while not a lawyer, I would heartily caution all concerned to be very careful about what they say and what they do hereforth.
Advocating thievery, advocating defamation of character, advocating breach of contract may border on CRIMINAL acts in Oklahoma.
This is even more to the point when the whole issue revolves around another internet marketer simply enforcing his own published rules, policies and terms.
This is especially important when the purported complaining party has published the very same rules, policies and terms and it is assumed enforces same as well.
You don’t like John’s policies, don’t do business with him. But don’t defame him simply because you do not like his published policies. That may be dangerous ground to walk upon since you are based in Oklahoma.
And let us not forget the hypocritical aspect of complaining about his policies when you in fact enforce the very same policies…
And since you have publicly published the right to terminate any account at any time for any reason. I guess you have really given up the right to complain about anyone else publishing that same policy. That is unless you are claiming ownership of that right, which I would have to consider a really stupid thought to entertain.
Again, not being an attorney I can only suggest that you all proceed very carefully since the WACKY GANG, or the WACKY TEAM, or the WACKY GALS, or the
whatever name they are using today are published as an Oklahoma business and that any/all communicating or doing business with them is doing business in Oklahoma… Because Oklahoma Statutes, tit. 21 §§ 771-781 defines Libel very clearly with the following statement:
Libel is a false or malicious unprivileged publication by writing, printing, picture, or effigy or other fixed representation to the eye, which exposes any person to public hatred, contempt, ridicule or obloquy, or which tends to deprive him of public confidence, or to injure him in his occupation.
As to Mz. Marie, I am not attacking anyone here, merely stating facts and pointing out hypocritical issues that the Wacky duo seem to be totally overlooking. The very fact that yo use the term “Attacking” demonstrates that you either are one of the Wacky duo falsely identifying yourself, or perhaps you are a close personal friend who cares not of the facts or truths, or perhaps you are just of like mind with the Wacky duo.
THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT THE WACKY DUO IS COMPLAINING BECAUSE JOHN ENFORCED HIS PUBLISHED POLICY, A POLICY THAT IS VERBATIM THE SAME AS THE WACKY DUO’S PUBLISHED POLICY, BUT THEY ARE EITHER TOO IGNORANT TO COMPREHEND THIS OR PERHAPS THEY FEEL THAT THEY ARE “s p e c i a l” AND DO NOT HAVE TO FOLLOW OTHER PROGRAM OPERATORS POLICIES. EITHER WAY, THEY ARE HANGING OUT ON A LONG, SKINNY LIMB THAT MAY NOT BE ABLE TO SUPPORT THEIR MASS OF HYPOCRISY MUCH LONGER!
As for whether I “know them”, I have purchased numerous packages from the Wacky Duo some time ago and have great difficulty getting downloads that work, getting responses to questions, getting solutions to problems. The issues are all documented as to time and place and in fact are the basis for my ceasing to do business with them. I have asked to be removed from their email lists innumerable times only to find myself on a new WACKY list. I have had them use the excuse that a particular domain name isn’t them, when that domain is registered to the very same party and address as their current domain. I have never once received a response to an email sent to them and only rarely received a usable response from tickets created on their ticket system.
Personally I think it funny that the only reason I became aware of this BS at all is because I received unwanted SPAM from them in the first place. and no, it wasn’t one message but 8 messages in bulk all sent to an email that I have specifically unsubscribed from numerous times as well as several email addresses that they apparently purchased or farmed as they have never been published to them at any time. Two of those are not even sent up to send any messages, only to receive them.
No, I am sorry Marie, but it is you who would appear to be lacking in experience or knowledge, about the Wacky Duo, or perhaps are speaking up for them because they have asked you or paid you to do so.
Hi Ken,
I am not one of the Wackys, I’m not related to them in any way either, and I’m not even a friend of them.
I’m just a satisfied customer of two ladies who did things differently and who had an uncanny way to respond to support requests so quickly, even on holidays, that it attracted my attention and they were the first and for the longest time the only marketers allowed in my main mailbox (I have other emails I used for IM lists I’m subscribed to so that my main mailbox doesn’t get all cluttered). (Now they are back to the general marketing mailbox because they have become more mainstream in what they propose – yet I still buy from them occasionally and I still and always get quick responses from them whenever I need to contact them (which admittedly is not all that often). And I’ve never been spammed by them. (Mind you, I don’t resubscribe every time I buy something from them, because that would get me multiple subscriptions/copies of the same emails).
I will not respond any further to anything else from you because your aggressive tone and insinuations and the threats you are uttering here are just not something I want to get into/respond to.
Marie
You state incorrect facts here…you know where the unsubscribe link is. You purchased less than 60 days ago, so obviously liked what we had (or maybe passed it on). No matter, we appreciate the business, but our investigations into our dealings with you show something quite different than you try to put across here, sorry.
As well, you don’t need to harrass these folks for speaking their mind. Until you became abusive and began spewing mistruths and incorrect information, we allowed you to do the same. The simple fact that someone wouldn’t know what an LLC is (and thinks it’s a proxy of some sort) tells us a lot as we’re sure it does others here also.
This is an interesting post to say the least. I will put my two cents in. First, of all many people sell the same products at lower prices or even repackaged with the same name. It is free enterprise. As long as you have rights to sell the product you can sell it for what you want.
If you want to talk about devaluing a product there are some forums that I am a member of that you can get the top products for free. Now that is devaluing a product. Anyone can sell for what price they want it’s the free enterprise system we have. Just as you can go into grocery stores and see the same product at different prices. Consumers always take the lower price it is just how It works.
Thanks Kenneth, and that was worth at least a nickel.
…And you forgot to mention that some newer “ad swappers” GIVE AWAY licensed products that they don’t have that right to do even outside those forums. …the list could go on and on, unfortunately. …This seemed to be a little more personal to us and we can’t help but wonder if he has removed all those “other” marketers that may have sold something for a few bucks less than he did that day… -
We appreciate your feedback greatly!
I’m on John Farrar’s list and have purchased a few products from him. I’m pretty stingy and always found his products to be reasonably priced and quite valuable. However, I disagree with the way the issue was handled. As an affiliate I would be pretty po’d. BTW, I had never heard of this blog before. So, it’s true, John did give his competitors some free traffic because now that I’m here, I see that I’ll be back
Thanks Vanessa, and you’re always welcome
I can see no reason why one company would need to create multiple affiliate accounts, whether it’s only two girls or a team of twenty. I see no accusation from John that the Wacky girls ever purchased from each others account, only that it is a common tactic by unscrupulous marketers to get products for free. Certainly I am not saying the Wacky girls fall into this category as I have never had any dealings with them.
I have known John for only eight months now, so I can attest to his character. I install blogs for his customers and assist with all WordPress related products tech support, so I see the support tickets first hand. John always goes the extra mile in providing complete support to all of his affiliates and to all of their customers. His level of service and professionalism is unparalleled. I see him refusing to accept money from his affiliate’s customers regularly when they request for him to correct issues with product installations that are beyond their abilities.
I have to admit that I do not understand the reason why the Wacky Girls choose to intentionally devalue products below a fair market value and reduce the amount of commissions that their affiliates can earn from them. It does hurt the affiliates and reduces their bottom line and damages the industry as a whole. I’m not saying it’s an underhanded tactic, but it just makes no sense for affiliates to work so hard and spend their hard earned money to promote products that are only going to provide a minimal return on their investment. When a customer perceived the value of a product to be low, they also perceive the quality of the product to be inferior as well. It’s better to charge to charge a fair price and maintain the integrity of the product being sold.
I just hope that both John and the Wacky Girls don’t let this get out of hand. You really should consider airing your grievances privately and not on this medium.
Let us quote an email we received recently as a response to one written by the same marketer on April 8th.
“The weekend is here and we don’t want you to do something “Wacky” like PAY for the new Clickbank Membership Plugin for WordPress!
We’ve got it for you FREE here: (link removed)
And yes, it includes the MRR rights!…” (and the email continued).
One marketer’s email to us that same day (April 8, 2011):
re. a newcomer taking potshots at you girls.
tacky tacky tacky ….
To which I responded (April 12, 2011) :
“nothing like “free” advertising…hehe
”
Thanks for the heads up tho’…guess he didn’t like having our support so much
Until today, we had taken it with a grain of salt, feeling kinda “jabbed,” but hey, it’s a free country. We didn’t take it personally (although he specifically called us out in an email) nor did we fall apart or anything just because he’d given away what we were selling in our WackyWeekendSale.com DIMESALE that week.
So, are you claiming ownership of the term “WACKY”? If so please cite your copyright!
On the other hand, you are claiming that it is your right to sell at any price yet want to complain about another vendor who is essentially claiming that very same right. Please advise on what authority you are claiming said right for yourself and what authority allows you to deny that very same right to others.
After all, if $7.00 is a pretty good price, isn’t FREE also a pretty good price?
It all sounds like so much sour grapes to me.
Gee, another marketer following in your footsteps, or put another way, aspiring to follow this new marketing trend that the Wacky Duo as created…
Seems like that would be complementing you, yet you are complaining about his tactics, which are in fact the very same tactics that you ascribe to…
What am I missing here, except perhaps sour grapes from the WACKY DUO…
It is important that you reveal the person’s name and broadcast it to the world to the best of your ability. Such misdeeds will hurt the entire industry and need to be called out when they occur. We must self police ourselves or invite someone else in to do it for us, which is not the best idea. It may rile some folks and create some short term insecurity from would be new affiliates, but in the long run it will help elevate the playing field by demonstrating that rip offs are called out and punished.
Not sure about this specific situation, but I’ve promoted both affiliate programs and personally found both John and the Wacky Gals nice, helpful, honest and ethical people to work with.
I appreciate John’s concern about the low price promotion issue. It is a free country – at least for the time being
– and other than a license restriction, most products can be sold for whatever you decide. This may be the basis of this entire situation since many marketers like John are frustrated when products they sell or promote are then resold or promoted for pennies on the dollar.
Of course it is a marketing strategy and the Wacky Gals are well known for their low ‘wacky’ price offers. Everyone has their own style and method of marketing and I always recommend supporting those programs that you’re in alignment with!
Mark
Mark, I agree, but then why are the Wacked out duo complaining…
John opted to enforce his policy to terminate any affiliate for any reason at any time, the same policy that the wacked out pair has published.
John has elected to offer some free offers to his existing subscriber base, and we all know that “free” is a pretty good price.
So this wacked out pair has:
1. decided to defame John on the internet (A crime in Oklahoma)!
2. claimed that John has no right to terminate their (multiple) affiliate accounts on his program!
3. claimed that John cannot elect to select a free give-away product for his subscriber base!
What are we missing here other than VERY SOUR GRAPES from the VERY WACKY PAIR!
I simply do not get it???
Do they think they own the internet???
Do they believe that only they can write the rules???
Somebody, anybody, please explain this to me??????????
So… how do we determine that when we make a payment
that it goes to you rather than somewhere else??
Dan
Hey Dan,
Now, yours is a tricky question.
With the different affiliate programs, split commissions and such, it’s hard to KNOW until you go to pay. We ask the same question at times: “did we pay the right person?” It’s just the nature of the beast I’m afraid.
You/we shouldn’t HAVE to worry that someone is taking our commissions from us, but it’s one of those things that some marketers do, and then justify it in whatever manner they can to make themselves feel better…I think they call it “human nature”
But, back in the “old days” …
Thanks for the question…
I know John personally.I also promote his products as an affiliate and he never gave a reason to doubt in his sincerety and honesty. I know that he is telling the truth.As I watched all the process closely.From one side it’s good for affiliates to promote products which go as dimesale, but is it good when Wacky sell the same products much cheaper right after John’s publishes them on his site? I have seen it by myself.
Hi Nataliya,
First off, know we appreciate your support and promotions.
This is what needs to be “known” by all that may wonder how it all works…
MANY marketers have access to the same “stuff” and some have access to things others don’t…if anything is a given here, it’s that it varies tremendously. When products come down the pike, we decide to accept or reject them, at which time we continue to investigate, clean things up, or do any other work we feel is necessary to put out a quality product.
What is IMPLIED, but isn’t true, is that we have been/or would systematically underprice his sale(s). We don’t even get his emails…so have NO IDEA what he is selling until we see an email from (usually) another affiliate, and mainly because he is probably working just as hard as we are to get everything ready.
What needs to be noted here is that we were “ELIMINATED” from his affiliate program some time back (we have no idea how long ago) and that in itself dispells the accusation that we have been accessing his affiliate area to undercut prices or “devalue” products.
What’s kind of interesting, almost humorous, is that we have also always held John in the highest regard – even wanting to PROMOTE the products we may not have had or didn’t have time to prepare.
Unfortunately, the true problem here isn’t what we charge, or that another marketer may charge more or less…it was plainly the fact that without our knowledge, our paypal email was replaced, which then diverted any sales to the paypal email it was replaced with. We had been “jabbed” at recently in one of his emails (see other post) and just smiled and went on…not even thinking another thing about it really (that is – until today). Now it seems, this has been some unseen/unheard battle that we weren’t even aware of for some time.
We simply just don’t think it’s right to do ANY AFFILIATE that way, and feel most of you would agree.
Another pet peeve we have is those marketers that systematically move things around and change affiliate programs…hey, if you have links out there, do you want those being changed or worse, showing as 404 pages? We have encountered this so much, it has made us shy away from promoting other marketers we don’t know or don’t feel have been around very long (and may not be there tomorrow).
I hope that explains all of this some.
As an affiliate Nataliya, you do what is best for your own subscribers. If we were to have something good/less expensive today, or another marketer has something tomorrow, then YOU would (and should) ultimately do what is best for you and your subscribers. If the extra couple of dollars is more important, we certainly understand that and hold no grudges (and rest assured, your account will remain intact with us forever, or until you remove it).
We hope that answers your concerns and dispells the false accusations that we have been doing something “underhanded”…it’s just not who we are.
I have been a victim of product thief ,and I blew it off cause it was my fault for not setting up proper security links ,in my download page I did not rename my pages with a unique link.
As you wrote this is a ethic issue and without a these ethics the marketing business is a farce and a “get what you can at any means business”. If those individuals cannot do business by our ethics then they are crooks and people I would not deal with,everyday I am careful about any person not honest,professional,and trust worthy, and all of these is why I do business with the wacky gals ,and not cheap crooks,with no ethics.
Ernest
Thanks Ernest. We appreciate you all
Halito, Ch^im Achukma
That’s the Choctaw greeting for “Hello, how are you?”
Thought maybe you all might be from OKLAHOMA (Choctaw for Red People),and,
might know a choctaw or two, LOL….
Any way , just wanted to say that I have been ripped by this tactic and some
others. This big ole’ Internet marketplace has some real baddies….
Some are truly crooks by nature, some just because they are ignorant of the rules, or, do not care… Some, don’t even know what ethics are.. My people have a saying… ” that one has bad parents “…
I know what my daddy would do if he caught somebody doing this to his business enterprise, just what you gals are doing, openly and politely reaching out to the other party with your view and your proofs, and waiting to see where the “chips” fall on the other end of the “arena”.
If I can’t get up today and look at my business as a helpful and ethical one , and look at myself in the “mirror of the marketplace” with humble satisfaction for the gifts God gives, then, I should walk another path.
Five hundred years ago, my people were marketers, trading corn “tanchi” for a host of goods and services up and down the Mississippi. We were known as the people who would honor our word always. We were also known as the ones who came at you relentlessly with the red and black paint on our face , hickory club in hand, to “explain” the issue with you in a whole different frame of mind…
My daddy used to say, ” we may have to go out behind the barn and explain it another way ” … Honor is a gift to be savored each moment, not a tool which shames you in front of your grandmothers eyes…
Walk In Beauty, ” Wacky ” Gals Keep Up the Good Work … Love Ya..!!!
Hi James,
I’m the Okie here. (Kathe)…we used to refer to folks like Denise as “yankees” but just like the Choctaws, we have become more civilized these days….
Your post is greatly appreciated, even humbling. There’s more than one take away lesson there to be learned.
Thanks again …and we love you too.
John’s action of modifying “wacky” affiliation so that he’ll get the commission instead of “wacky” is just unbelievable even if his allegations were true. It just shows an easy way of stealing one or two or more of an affiliate’s commission that after doing so, can be switched back to the real affiliates without probably the real affiliates knowing it…
So how does an affiliate knows some of his/her sales were not stolen at one time or another especially at the height of the affiliate’s active promotion?
How many newbies know that ALL commissions due them they have received as a result of an active promotion if someone’s product they are promoting can easily “switched” the commission to go to their own account instead of the affiliate?
John, this really worries me?
Hi Newbie,
Because we had other things to get done today (and will answer you all eventually if we can), I’ll make this one short.
Basically, if you can log in and see your affiliate account, MOST USUALLY (unless there is a programming problem or intentional programming fraud) you will get paid for what you promote.
Hope that helps, and thanks for the post.
As online marketers, especially full-time ones, we can always monitor through LIVE Tracking where a heavy traffic is CURRENTLY FROM and with who the affiliate is. With what John did presumably, if he knows he’s getting a lot of traffic from “wacky”, he can just sort of “turn off” the switch for a minute or two while traffic is heavy (probably without the affiliate knowing it) and in the process steal the commissions due to the real affiliates.
Then, “turn it on” back so that whatever sales be made goes to the real affiliates.
Take note also that he’s already making money with upselling by 100%. The affiliates only make money with the frontend. And I think a very disturbing practice is that, once a visitor purchases from any of his affiliates, he’ll directly contact the visitor by email and make an offer without the affiliate who brought the visitor to him getting a fair share.
I don’t know with you and the rest of the online marketers, but to me this is absolutely not attractive to me.
Newbie, obviously you do not get it… John is one of the few who gives you 100% of every affiliate sale you make…
You see, the key word there is “sale you make”.
Obviously you also do not comprehend that any/all affiliate program is nothing more than front end list building program for the program operator.
With the WACKED OUT pair, you have an affiliate program that promises you a:
“commission/referral fee amount varies from product, service or opportunity. The rate at which your referral fee is generated can be found on the website and is subject to change at any time.”
at best the typical WACKED OUT affiliate commission is 50%….
With John, ALL of the affiliate commissions are 100%….
In both cases, after that first sale, the buyer ends up on both their mailing lists for follow on sales.
I guess if you consider an ever varying, lower commission with the Wacked Out Girls is more profitable for you, that is your right. But I would highly suggest that you look up a basic math tutor and sign up quickly.
Bottom line is that affiliate programs are not automatic get rich machines, affiliate programs require you to actually market yourself and your products. If you expect to sign up for any affiliate program and then simply sit back and grow rich, someone has been lying to you.
As I noted earlier, Affiliate Programs are nothing more than a different front end list building system for the affiliate program operator. It matters not who is running it, Amazon, John, or the Wacked Out Pair.
All wacky site affiliates know that MOST of the commissions on the frontend are 100% and that we even pay on the oto (highly unusual in most cases) – that’s why folks copy our business plan that hadn’t changed in almost 4 years so much – it produces results. We reduce the front end prices to allow for those that want the information and don’t want to “resell” anything, can get it for a good price…
Many affiliates know this as well, and promote to sell the frontend products for the full 100% that goes directly to their paypal accounts immediately after purchase.
What a total dog this guy is. Honestly, it seems like there are more and more “dogs” in this business. What did it for me is the redirecting of the commissions. Total classless act on his part. He should have notified you in writing. Nuff said!
vicki Lehmann
Rochester, NH
…and thank you Vicki, for your comment
So Vicki, may I quote you. Essentially you are saying that:
1. John has no right to enforce his policies, the same policies that the wacked out pair enforce…
2. John has no right to set his prices anywhere within his license terms, the same claim that the wacked out pair claim…
3. John has no right to terminate any affiliate for any reason at any time, the same as the wacked out pair claims….
So I guess John is therefor required to maintain accounts even for those who violate his published policies with two accounts and then even admit to signing up a third time when one of the original two was terminated.
Hmmm, I don’t think so…
Everyone has the right to enforce their terms, policies and licenses to the fullest despite the Wacked Out Pairs claims otherwise. No one is forcing them do business with John and in fact he has obviously elected to not do business with them by terminating their account.
But I will be happy to quote you to our subscribers as one who favors the Wacked Out Pairs apparent claim that only they can establish and enforce any such rules or policies…
I have to agree that John has done things the wrong way.
If he chose to delete your affiliate account he should have ensured that you were informed in advance and given the reasons. It certainly seems that he has simply redirected the affiliate payments to his account, thereby taking advantage of your marketing efforts. There’s no other logical reason for him to have left your affiliate nickname active.
He just lost my subscription and any future business that he might have got from me.
Hi Bill,
Thanks for your comment. Even if something like this was done “mistakenly,” it was an indication to us (and a wake-up call) that our account was being hijacked, we just didn’t know if it was money motivated or what we had done “wrong” to warrant the diversion.
Hi
The best way to sort this out would be for mr Farra to pay you any commisions earnt from your account since it has been redirected till today and bring the dispute to an end.
If my commisions were redirection without being notified I would be pissed as well. So all parties invovled should talk to each other on sykpe or phone. As the old advert use to say it’s good to talk.
Ted
P.S John is your reputation worth a few lousy dollars?
Ted recently posted..Traffic To A Website – Website Traffic
Thanks Ted. Believe it or not, it was never about the money…
Hi Gang,
The way I see it is this…
Because the RAP script automatically deverts all affiliate payments to the admin of the product when an affiliate account has been deleted changing the PayPal email address does the same thing as deleting the account.
Unless…
If the Wacky Gals promoted another product of John’s based on a generic link in an email to affiliates. Then John would be stealing commissions because the wacky nickname would be used by the Wacky Gals.
An affiliate does not always have to sign into their affiliate account to be able to promote an affiliate product.
So by changing the PayPal email in this case appears to be an attempt to steal commissions. The proper and ethical way to disable an affiliate account is to delete, suspend or deactivate the account.
Notification of deleting, suspending or deactivating an account should be done. Email is not the most trusted way of notification. I know the Wacky Gals do have a support desk and it is included in every one of their emails.
Never, never, never change a PayPal address in any account unless requested by the owner of the PayPal account.
As an owner of my own affiliate program, I would never delete or change an affiliate account of an affiliate that sent sales my way without first contacting the affiliate if I thought something was being done wrong.
Changing the PayPal email address to his own was clearly a HUGE enthical NO NO. It has the real appearance of trying to steal commissions.
Best regards,
Steve Yakim
Steve old buddy, you are apparently missing several facts.
1. Their account was terminated.
2. they were notified
on the other hand, I have attempted to communicate with the wacky duo on several occasions in the past and only received response in a few, rare cases. Regardless of replying to an email account, initiating an email or even using their support site, I have never been able, to any degree of certainty, that I would get a response without sending multiple copies and even then the success rate has been dismal at best.
Bottom line is that they are complaining about Johns enforcing policies that they do not like, despite the fact that they have published and enforced the very same policies.
They are mad because John has chosen to offer specific products to his subscriber base at a price lower than theirs – excuse me, but they offer specific products at prices below my prices but that apparently is their right (assuming there are not violating any more license terms).
They are mad because John has chosen to terminate them for violating the policy against multiple accounts, especially when purchases are made by one of those accounts thru the other account in direct violation of his policies and be advised they have even admitted to creating a third affiliate account right here, in complete disregard for his policing against multiple accounts.
No Steve, don’t be trapped into believing there is more to this than simply Sour Grapes from the Wacky pair for being called out on their own tactics.
Hi Ken,
There is a fact that you are glossing over. The Wacky Gals said…
“we used the “forgot password” button at his site. When we entered our usual affiliate nickname, instead of showing that it had sent the login details to our email address, it reported it had sent them to an email we didn’t recognize as our own.”
This means without a doubt that the Wacky Gals’ affiliate account was never deleted. You are believing John when he said he deleted their account, when the evidence clearly shows that the account was not deleted, but the PayPal email address was changed.
If their account was deleted, which would include their Wacky nickname, the message from the RAP script should have said that the account was not found. Instead is said the information was sent to a different email address.
If the message had come back with account not found, then we would not be having this conversation. I see by the number of posts you have made here that you really like John, but this is proof that the account was never deleted, but instead altered.
It is this statement that can’t be ignored and was the evidence on which I based my comments.
Best regards,
Steve
This is so wrong, on so many levels. First, what rights were acquired when you first purchased the products? The very least he could have done was to
contact you guys to discuss the situation, prior to removing you as an affiliate. And by no means should he have the ability to replace your payment processor with his. I could go on and on, but I believe this type of thing happens more often than we know.
Hi Gals,
All I can say is, I’ve been with you for quite awhile and I trust you.
I’ve dealt with some pretty crooked people lately – both online and off. This is a good reason to get of another marketing list. A dozen less offers to deal with each week.
Fight on!
Brenda
Brenda recently posted..5 Quick Tips To Get Website Traffic Fast!
You know we love you, Brenda. Thanks.
Hi Wacky Girls
I’ve been ripped off a couple of times by dirty affiliate programs. It seem you’re not the only ones having trouble with this guy. Take a look here:
im-source.com/160/get-instant-payments-john-farrar-affiliate-ripoff-scammer.htm
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck….
Best of luck to you both
Wendy
Wendy Owen recently posted..Surviving the Four Obstacles On the Journey to Becoming an Internet Marketer
Kathe and Denise:
I’m sorry to read about your trouble with this product owner/broker. Unfortunately, it takes all kinds to make the world go round.
I’ve been selling things through my affiliates for almost 16 years now…I know, I was selling things before either of you were tall enough to even reach a computer…so I DO know what I’m talking about here!
I wouldn’t even for one single minute consider taking an affiliate’s commission in any way whatsoever! I owe too much to all the smart, hard work those affiliates do for my products, their bank accounts and mine as well.
Take it from someone who’s been where you are right now, ignore this, don’t let it sour your thinking and especially don’t let it stop you from taking care of your subscribers and your affiliates.
Just make sure this blog stays here to serve as a “heads up” for prospective affiliates before they join an affiliate program.
You know I love you gals and think you’re mighty good marketers!
dennis
Thanks for speaking on our behalf Dennis.
Here’s what happens if you are an affiliate to John Farrar’s GetInstantPayments as per Mr. Customer who purchased via my affiliate link.
Mr. Customer purchased my recommended product via my affliate link (I get 100% of that purchase, presumably at that time). Then, on his way out to downloading the products he had purchased, Mr. Customer is presented with an OTO which John gets 100% of that.
Then, within a couple of days or two, John sends follow-up email offers to Mr. Customer, of which the original affiliate who brought the sales and the visitor does not get any commission, SEEMS LIKE TOTALLY STEALING THE CUSTOMER FROM YOU.
In essence, as an affiliate, you will only make money for one time (if at that time your affiliate account wasn’t modified for a minute or two), and the customer you brought to his website is gone with his own follow-up offers.
Hopefully, this explains John’s chosen way of making money.
As online marketers, we have a responsibility to be fair as trust is very, very hard to come by nowadays.
Hello Newbie,
If you promote anyone’s affiliate link other than your. You are promoting their product and if you get 100% commission they in a sense are paying you for traffic and for that person that buys the product from them and yes they will be promoting to that person now because 2 things they are buyers and you want to be promoting to buyers and 2ndly they are on their list that is what they have a right in doing. Even if you promote to a higher ticket product and you only get fifty percent of the commission believe they are going to promote to that customer as a oto and then on the download page that is just the way internet marketing is done so as far as that is concerned john is doing what every product creator or seller does. Nothing strange in that. But the only thing i have with him is how this was handled.
Hi all,
Just to clarify – your account was deleted right? The Paypal email wasn’t changed to his or anything? Wouldn’t the affiliate links you were using have come up with a ‘page not found’ error or have been redirected to a 404 error page on your site? That’s what happens when programs close down and my links no longer work…
Anyway, in my humble opinion, anyone that runs an affiliate program has the right to cancel an account if the account holder doesn’t follow the rules, i.e. multiple accounts, spamming, etc., etc. Google cancelled mine for no reason that I could determine five years ago! I’m sure you guys (the Wacky team) have cancelled accounts in the past – what was your procedure for doing so when you had to?
The other complaint referenced above at im-source(dot)com/160/get-instant-payments-john-farrar-affiliate-ripoff-scammer… is ridiculous. John’s program states specifically that affiliates get paid for the first sale and the admin gets OTO’s – that’s stated upfront – no scheme at all and actually a pretty good deal if you’re looking to make commissions on your first sale instead of second or third.
Anyway, just my two cents. I’m an affiliate for both of you and haven’t had any complaints about either program. It seems like it would have been a lot more professional to handle this situation between the two of you instead of starting this post and opening up BOTH sites to a lot of bad publicity. Both sites have helpdesks if a phone call wasn’t feasible.
In the end – this dialogue is probably going to make affiliates question the credibility of the Wacky team as well as GetInstantPayments, which is a shame because effective communication from the beginning of the problem could have avoided the entire ordeal.
Tina
Hi Tina,
Thanks for your post, and I disabled the links (I hope you don’t mind – because we happen to agree with most of your statements).
At the time this was written originally, our WACKY account was active and had not been deleted nor banned, simply diverted to another email not belonging to us.
If after almost four years as “The Wacky Gals” (and several years before that online) we would like to think our integrity is pretty much established and intact. We merely brought things here for open discussion. Is it right or wrong?
We further understand that “newer” marketers may not fully understand the consequences of such action(s) – and should.
Marketers have pulled affiliate programs, refused to pay, and diverted commissions in the name of “server/program error” for as long as we can remember. But that still doesn’t make it right, in our opinion.
And at the end of the day “we” should all wonder why people would want this type of behavior kept OUT of “the public eye”? (not directed to you specifically, btw).
If marketers were doing business “ethically” and “right” (by generally accepted business practices) then there would be nothing to discuss.
We are all human, and sometimes we even make mistakes. Simply stand up, admit the wrong, make changes if necessary, and move on.
Thanks again…
I have known Kathe and Denise for years, and they are extremely ethical marketers.
I bought a product from John (through someone’s affiliate link) a few months ago and signed up as an affiliate.
I have NEVER promoted any of his products because:
1) I discovered what ‘newbie’ said re John taking 100% of the upsell sales.
2) John sent an email to his affiliates with a series of PRIVATE emails he’d received from an affiliate admonishing him for the upsell issue.
3) He sent a very strong email to his affiliates today about this issue – does he thinks this will get people on side? Because from my perspective it does the opposite.
I haven’t done so to date, but will now remove myself as an affiliate. This is not the sort of person I want to deal with.
John, this rant of yours will only lose you customers and affiliates. Admit you’ve done the wrong thing and move on.
In my opinion, you are now stealing affiliate commissions from the Wacky Gals. What right do you have to change the affiliate link to your own? You say it’s the script, but frankly, I don’t believe you. (And I am entitled to my own opinion!)
Sooo good to “see” you Cheryl.
Thanks for your input.
We value our affiliates tremendously (and even pay part of the oto to them on every sale!). Another pet peeve we have is the affiliate sign ups being on the sales pages. Ugh…
Now, while we have discussed changing our own policy, to date we do not do that because we do not (and try not to promote) those marketers that do. I directly reflects on the fact that the affiliate is doing the promotion…not for other affiliates, but for the SALE of the product promoted.
Thanks again, (and we need to “catch up” soon – it’s been a while).
I can see how offering a product at a price lower than its original cost might affect the success of other affiliates–but that still doesn’t justify re-directing someone’s commissions without notice! The way I see it, if John had notified you PRIOR to changing the payment link it would have been ok–he is entitled to decide who may, or may not, be a member of his affiliate program. But apparently he didn’t do that.
It is REALLY suspicious to me that you were able to find your account after it had been “deleted”–that’s the first thing that doesn’t make sense. Then, to be able to get a “password reminder” that is linked to a different email address–something really smells bad here!
Another tactic that I’ve experienced is affiliate owners who change the site after you sign up–and don’t notify you of the changes. For example, I promoted a product for Affiliate Marketer E, a very prominent marketer, at sign up there were no popups on the site. However, a few weeks later there is a popup to sign up for their newsletter, etc.–that interrupts the product pitch! I’m trying to get a sale, but they’re taking people away to sign up for their newsletter! I don’t mind you building your list–but let me make a sale first! Many people will instantly click off on a site once they see a pop up! I refuse to promote anything that has a popup before the sale is made! To me, this is almost as bad as stealing a commission, since you are preventing me from making a sale (and not compensating me for building YOUR list!)! So there are a lot of questionable tactics being used out there.
Thanks John,
you are very observant
…and I just commented to Tina’s post above about some of our “policy” on what we do (or don’t do) because we try to protect the affiliate’s commmissions.
I wouldn’t join any affiliation with this technique even with just a single pop-up (some have about 2, 3 more persistent popups if you have noticed).
This would tell you right on of an opportunistic marketer which means they may go to great length from keeping you at bay in earning commission you deserve from every sale generated via your promoted affiliate link.
My two cents, John’s probably have that in the works….
Hi, Folks,
Great blog. I have been laughing so much that I have hurt myself!
Internet Marketers discussing Ethics!!! What next?
The simple fact is that anybody can sell any digital product at any price subject to the terms and conditions of their agency. In internet marketing the supplier can’t prevent any digital product from being sold on or even given away. What he CAN do very easily, is re-route purchases of his other products through his own portals if an affiliate blinks.
It is not so long ago that we were being innundated with promotional emails telling us how we could “legitimately steal the commissions of other marketers” and these emails still appear today.
Internet marketing is a sleazy and dirty game. No matter what efforts people might make to behave correctly, only constant vigilance will ensure that they will succeed. It seems the Wacky girls took their eye off the ball and suffered the consequences.
Sad – but heck, this is internet marketing, right?
Incidentally, Google search just about any IM product and you will have a very high chance of finding someone giving it away.
Arthur Webster recently posted..rip off your neighbours
Interesting read, Gals. The fact is, this kind of thing happens all too often in the internet marketing world. I’m sorry it happened to you two. After having you as affiliates for WP Amaz-One, I have nothing but good to say about your marketing techniques as well as your integrity.
While the situation is different, I recently experienced dishonesty in a BIG way, you might say. If you’re so inclined, check out the blog post shown here on my reply.
Lisa Gergets recently posted..Don’t Let It Happen To You
Hey,
I’ve seen the “birth” of the Wacky Gals and I’ve seen them progress. I was a fan from the start because of their (fresh approach at the time) and I bought many things from them. I’m not as active with them now that they have started doing this full time and promoting more and more stuff because in achieving that they also ended up being a (tiny) little bit more like everything else I see around…
I’m still on their list because even though I’ve seen (some, rare) occasions where I did find the same products sold for less or free elsewhere, I know they work hard to get interesting stuff to us and they test what they sell, they DO CHECK licenses all the time and even though I’m on many lists, they still manage to bring me very interesting stuff at great prices on a regular basis.
I admire those two girls because it’s been clear from the start that their FIRST CONCERN IS THEIR CLIENTS AND AFFILIATE, rather than their pockets.
I’ve ALWAYS seen them be EXCEPTIONALLY ethical, responsive, honest, and providing good products for the money.
I don’t know John Farrar, but I know one thing. If the Wacky Gals still had a username in the database but it was attached to another email, it means the account was NOT deleted and the payments were REDIRECTED to another Paypal account. That, in MY book, is fraud.
And John Farrar’s answers here are very much off the point. He never responds directly to the points in case. That in my book spells: you don’t know how to read or you don’t want to answer… (or you’re so furious you can’t read/talk straight anymore – if so, first calm down, then answer straight and don’t be afraid to apologize if you made a mistake).
Marie
PS to “Ken”: Your whole attack on the premise the Wacky Gals would not respect/try to avoid accountability about licenses proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that you don’t know them, not even one tiny little shred of a bit.
Why don’t the two sides actually get together first and agree on the actual facts? (e.g. who tried to reach whom via email before all this started happening? Were any licensing terms actually violated? how does the affiliate systems actually deal with deleted affiliates? Is there really a second shooter out there with a “wacky” username? etc), Then come back, report one single set of what-went-down, and THEN the vox populi can give their opinions on the ethics matter?
Otherwise, people will hear what they want to hear.
Eric,
One of the two parties here will not listen nor respond directly to the case in point. How would you expect them to “get together first and agree on the actual facts”?
It seems to me that is what the Wacky Gals have tried to do and didn’t succeed.
If someone is capable of redirecting commissions instead of simply deleting an account, how can you expect any honest (let alone adult) behavior on their part as you are suggesting?
I guess you’re a dreamer
Yawn… This got boring after the first comment.
Your customer’s should be a priority. As a person looking for tools to grow my business I’m going to try and get them at the lowest possible price. I don’t give a rats ass about the competition. This is like any other business. The one with the lowest price get’s my vote. I couldn’t’ care less who gets the commissions or the sale. As long as I know I got a bargain I’m fine.
As far as lowering the price devaluing the product… bull shit! That’s nothing more than marketing slight of hand. If I buy a brand new BMW for $5 does that mean that BMW has been somehow devalued? This is nothing more than a marketing gimmick that most people can see through. If it’s a good product it will have value despite the price. You can’t make a piece of trash have value just because you write manipulative – er I mean – flashy sales copy and give it a specific price. The average price on CB products is $47. Do you know why? Because that’s the price that the “experts” determined will result in the highest conversion rate. It’s not rocket science people. This is marketing 101 stuff. If you disagree you are ignorant at best and delusional at worst. The CB Member Plugin has the same value whether it’s $0.01 or $1,000.00 It’s the same product and holds the same value. Given the choice I choose the $0.01 option.
Regarding the affiliates (of which I am not) it’s six of one and half dozen of the other. Higher price means greater commissions for each sale, but less sales volume. On the other hand lower prices means lower commissions for each sale but greater volume. So it evens out. The argument about affiliates being affected is just silly IMHO.
Finally, I think it’s unprofessional for both of you to be having this discussion in public. Take it privately and do ethical business and you won’t have to worry about this stuff.
I’ve lost confidence and respect for both of you over this. But I’m still gonna shop around for the best price. No one will deter me from doing that.
Just had to throw my two cents in here.
I don’t know John, but I do know Kathe and Denise. They’ve been affiliates of mine and I of their site for some time now. I’ve always known them as being 2 trustworthy straight-shooters that work hard to carve their section of the IM world. Sounds to me like they have a legitimate concern here.
What a boatloat of BS, from BOTH sides.
In the first place, besides the fact that they are both talking PAST each other, they don’t even make sense. When you try to login to an account, you are not using the PayPal address, you are using your business email address. The Paypal address is the one that is used for the financial transactions, not communication.
Secondly, it’s perfectly obvious that if an affiliate account gets deleted, then any time that affiliate’s url/link is used, the server will *of course* default to the admin account…the same as if there was no affiliate tag at all. Common sense, folks.
Thirdly, it seems that both party’s emails went into the big ether. So if no response was received, why not use regular mail, or the telephone, or send a f*cking FED-EX missive instead of ranting about how you both were ignored? Jeez, guys…it all sounds so lame to us disinterested third parties.
Fourthly, in the Rights Declaration of the product, any marketer is able to set a “minimum price” his product can be sold for. Did Farrar have such a clause? If not, he can’t complain. If he did, then the Gals are treading thin ice if they undercut it.
In my main business we deal with communication issues. The key to communication is NEGOTIATION. Each party sets out to state what he wants, and they they negotiate a compromise. That’s how it works in business.
Sounds like nobody here did any real negotiation at any point in this whole rigamorole. And it sounds like both parties have amends to make.
Okay, I had a good time skimming through the back-and-forth, just to learn a little more about possible pitfalls in this IM business. And an even better time getting my two cents out there. Right about now I think both John & the Gals should “man up” and shake hands. They were both in the wrong, they both said a lot they should regret, and since we’re all in this business together and have to work together, they should do the right thing.
But if not…. I wish ‘em both well. I’m staying on both their lists.
Edward Rapka
“In the first place, besides the fact that they are both talking PAST each other, they don’t even make sense. When you try to login to an account, you are not using the PayPal address, you are using your business email address. The Paypal address is the one that is used for the financial transactions, not communication.”
They asked for their password (used the lost password function) and the server sent the password to an address that wasn’t theirs. Which proves (1) that the account was not deleted, and (2) that the email attached to their account had been modified. That email is also the one receiving affiliate commissions… it wasn’t theirs anymore… (3).
Maybe you should re-read the issue from the start?
Marie
Marie, think about what you wrote: “They asked for their password (used the lost password function) and the server sent the password to an address that wasn’t theirs.” If that is the case, how could they know? The email didn’t GO to them, it went to “an address that wasn’t theirs.” Unless they can intercept other people’s emails….which I think violates some federal laws…
And again, as I stated: we’re talking about two different email addresses here: (1) the business-communication address which is used to sign into the affiliate account and do the back-and-forth, and (2) the Paypal-related address which is the one that is used in the financial transactions/commissions.
Now, as to whether or not the account was actually “deleted” I think that determination is still up in the air, and really depnds upon how the RAP script handles deleted accounts. Does it just destroy them entirely, does it archive the information so it can be recovered, or does it just flag them as “deleted” and go on about its business. Not being familiar with the software, I can’t venture any opinions on this…maybe someone else on this thread can explain exactly how it works.
EAR
Dear Edward,
You said:
“Marie, think about what you wrote: “They asked for their password (used the lost password function) and the server sent the password to an address that wasn’t theirs.” If that is the case, how could they know? The email didn’t GO to them, it went to “an address that wasn’t theirs.” Unless they can intercept other people’s emails….which I think violates some federal laws…”
1. First, a comment on YOUR own answer to YOUR question: You seem to think they only thing these ladies can do is fraud and violating laws… That has come to the point where one might start wondering if that kind of thinking is speaking loads about yourself (and your friends) – so you should be careful before you accuse others of anything.
2. Second, the actual ANSWER to your question: When the server sends the lost password to an email, it TELLS YOU WHERE IT WAS SENT. Most servers do anyway. So that no one has to go violating laws (!!!) to figure it out, the server is nice enough to tell you.
Simple, right?
And pretty legal too.
So I’m guessing you don’t have much experience with loosing passwords (good for you!).
Have a great day.
Marie (who unfortunately can’t resist more than a few days replying to false accusations)
HI
After reading most of the emails and responces i still have the same
Thoughts about what was done .My personal opinion is that no mater what someone wants to call it or defend it when you take something from someone .
That is not yours then you are a thief there is no other word for it i guess you could say it was done fraudulently but that is still thieving were i come from.And a person has a right and i think something of a obligation to expose this To there affiliates and anyone that might be harmed by this persons actions .
Them saying that they were only trying to protect there people is really
lame and untruth full.
If i seem harch about this subject i may be but if i found someone in my
house stealing from me.They would receive a much worse response from me .
were i live folks that take stuff that don’t belong to them will recive the same from 99% of my neighbors too
Nuff said
I want to make one more point here that seems to have been overlooked throughout this thread. If an affiliate agreement is terminated, for whatever reason (legitimate or not), then any further sales made using their affiliate tag are by definition no longer producing a commission. A third-party customer who clicks on the affiliate link will be taken to the salespage without an affiliate cookie being set; and that’s the same as if he had gone directly to the salespage himself.
In such a case, there is NO commission involved. The sale is for 100% of the saleprice and the proceeds all go to the owner of the salespage.
So, any talk about “stealing commissions” is tautological nonsense. No affiliate relationship = no commission. There is no longer anything that can be “stolen.”
That’s simply the way internet affiliate marketing works, folks.
EAR
Bottom Line John … your arguments don’t answer the original question I asked as to how you cookie system tracks affiliates and why they “Wacky” gang was able to find their username in your system with a different email address attached.
You’ve avoided the issue.
I don’t know you, I don’t have a pony in this race … but you are not convincing me at all.
Robert recently posted..The Rookie & The Shiney New Thing
I guess that’s all true because you state here it is…right?
IF this was “nothing” to you, you would have already picked up the phone or emailed me by now.
Let me state this SIMPLY so that everybody understands…
THE USER NAME “WACKY” and YOUR Paypal EMAIL shouldn’t appear on the same screen as you have described it (Now, I’m sure you’ve changed things around and talked to other RAP users to make it all look innocent, but we tested PRIOR TO writing you this morning) (btw, I CC THREE(3) email addresses, two admin and one gmail that appears in your “who is” with ICANN).
When an affiliate is DELETED, the payments automatically go back to admin (you) (which btw, wasn’t right in itself, but…. the screen tells you “no such reseller”.)
When an affiliate is BANNED, the payments still go to admin BUT – BUT…when the affiliate tries to log in, they will get a screen that basically says “That account does not exist – an invalid nickname” (my words). (we didn’t see that)
When an affiliate is TAMPERED WITH in the database, the payments go to the paypal email that the Owner (you, in this case) entered into the database by hand (intentional)…AND…everything appears to work “normal” except I/We couldn’t log in “normally”….
So, not being able to LOG IN, I/we figure, well, we forgot our password (the one of three we use on all rap scripts), so we ask it to be sent to us)…
It was THEN that I found the “new” email address, and being puzzled (and not recognizing it), I wondered “who could hijack our affiliate account” and went to “who is” to see who the owner of the site was…
That’s it…nothing else to be discussed really. I know you want to put a spin on this in your favor, but here’s the thing in one nice, neat, nutshell…
As Steve Yakim said above (in fact he can say it better than I can here…)
Quote: “Never, never, never change a PayPal address in any account unless requested by the owner of the PayPal account.”
I rest my case (again)…we’ve tested every scenario (because, trust me, if I could actually find I was wrong- I would publically apologize here).
And yet, NOW we have to wonder…has ALL OWNERS now diverted our links to their own because they don’t like our pricing? Make a couple of wacky gals wonder, you know? Scary stuff.
(by the way, you might want to give more facts when you just ‘say’ things…what two affiliate accounts? (we admitted we signed up again today), what emails did you send email to? when? what’ prompted it? I don’t see any of that, or maybe I missed it, sorry)
We’re not slinging mud…had you posted something similar, i’m sure it would have been taken much differently, right? …we have done nothing but state the facts and the truth as we believe it to be (and have proven to ourselves). Thing is, we didn’t sling first, you did in your email of April 8th…I just don’t understand WHY (I personally was not even near a computer for over a week, recouperating from my surgery), but in searching all emails in several accounts we find NOTHING as you indicate.
AND FINALLY…our coming here today isn’t suspect…it merely PROVES we haven’t been accessing your affiliate account to check (or DEVALUE) your products and pricing.
To our estimation, you did this months ago – we just now discovered it when we tried to log in to PROMOTE one of your products…hence, our “investigations” began.
BTW, we have screen shots here from our tests, and of course when we went back to your site, you’ve now changed it all, so, there ya’ go…
No doubt you probably wish you had done things differently now. I honestly do not know what provoked you to think this was justified, but I’m sure you felt it was for some odd reason (or someone egged you on maybe? …that happens)
Where I would have honestly liked to have actually FOUND a logical sequence of these events, I didn’t, and now I can’t PROVE anything because Pollyanna didn’t take screenshots (lesson learned), because I really thought this was some weird fluke…heck I just paid you for products within the last 30 days…you didn’t ban my purchases and return my money. …at the end of the day, it seems it is all about the money, unfortunately.
I am really just wondering that when one already have so much, they even want so much more money to the point of making shrewd act that one loses what really matters. Can’t bring the money up there pal! How about down there?
Your choice.
Just so you know you have a choice!
Hi Ken,
Thanks for your post (I think).
You seem to be a little confused, but you don’t state the facts that could back your claim that we are “hiding behind a proxy” so frankly, i’m not sure how to respond. We have our business name and address in our emails, on ICANN’s Who Is (btw, The Agency, LLC is a company, not a proxy, and owns the wacky domains).
This was never about the “rules, terms, or licensing” – it was about a marketer’s ability to divert an affiliate account and the sales/funds associated with it (technically), and whether or not you guys felt that was fraudulent and/or simply wrong.
Just because “we” have these capabilities as marketers, doesn’t make it a “right” thing to do.
“We” have the capabilities to rob banks, but that doesn’t mean it’s the “right” thing to do – right?
Please see our post(s) below for clarification.
Thanks again
My apologies as I read “The Agency” as in ‘the Proxy Connection’ another Proxy service that illicit marketers hide behind.
As for the issue itself, I agree with you, no marketer should be simply diverting a payment account.
On the other hand, if an affiliate account is terminated, for any reason, as per the various terms. license issues, etc., then the affilaite payment will most like default to the program operator. The affilaite software I use does this and I am willing to bet that your affilaite software does this also.
As I noted previously, and you have yet to respond to…
Virtually EVERY affilaite program I have ever signed up for includes these basic clauses:
1. The program operator sets the rules for their affiliate program, and they are free to alter the rules for their affiliate program at anytime and for any reason.
2. when any affiliate violates the terms/licenses that they have agreed to, their account is subject to immediate cancellation.
3. the Program Operator may terminate any affiliate account, at any time, and for any reason.
4. The affiliate will be immediately terminated if found attempting to cheat the system by using multiple accounts in an effort to increase their payments.
Can you please explain why or how you have come to base your complaints on these very issues?
1. The program operator may terminate the affiliate account at any time, for any reason…
2. The program operator may modify the affiliate agreement, terms or conditions, at any time…
3. If any modification to this agreement is not acceptable to the affilaite, the affilaite’s only recourse is to terminate the agreement.
Can you explain your apparent failure to comprehend these terms/conditions?
Please note that these are YOUR OWN terms and conditions!!!
So, you expect us to believe that if you terminate an affilaite accoutn, for any reason, affiliate payments would still go to the affilaite account holder?
I am willing to bet that they don’t, that they indeed default to you, the program operator’s account…
Now, if you consider having your account cancelled to be a crime, so be it for I cannot speak to your intelligence or sanity.
Bottom line is that it is about the rules, terms and policies. Nothng mroe and certainly nothing less. You operate your business based upon your published terms, rules, policies as do the rest of us.
If someone violates your rules, terms or policies will you simply allow it to continue or will you terminate the offendy party/account?
I am pretty certain that you would terminate any account you found or even believed to be violating your rules, terms or policies. To do otherwise would be, for lack of a better term at the moment, stupid, froma business perspective.
Bottom line, if you can terminate any affiliate account at any time for any reason, so to can any other affiliate programs. And that is what it is all about, you had your account termianted or perhaps I should say, one of your accounts, and your upset about that.
Hmm, so if I go out and violate your terms, you termiante me, can I RANT about you for doingthe same thing? Perhaps I will simply “clone” your rantings and publish them back at you since, according to you it isn’t about the rules, licenses or terms…
Robert, robert…
did you not read the part where he said…
“I in no way “re-directed” anything. I did NOT change their paypal email address to mine, their account was deleted. When an affiliate deletes their account or is deleted by the admin, any referrals coming from any links they may have used or via affiliate cookies are diverted to the default email address (the merchant’s) in the system. This is how the script works, not some devilish plan.”
It wasn’t his cookie system it is a standard process that most affiliate systems operate under… when an account is terminated, all sales default to the program operator.
as for the account names, who said anything about them being the same. Fact is I just called John on the phone in florida and asked him and he told me that while both accounts used the same work/text the second account ended with the numeral 1.
So apparently the Wacked out pair was too wacked out to even be creative enough to use a different IP and a different account name and walked right into the policy violation. In fact he tells me that it was the two accounts showing up together on his account list that even brought it to his attention…
Funny how facts can so confound such ridiculous claims, isn’t it…